The cost of breeding

[Maryjo's Gang]

Bravo, Danté... I try to say many of your points in other forums & groups, but you have said it much better than I ever could!

Another point I try to make about rescue: I know of someone who 'rescues' pugs from a puppymill breeder in the Midwest near her. He gives her the used-up bitches that have had so many litters over the years that the health care costs are unbelieveable. She believes she is rescuing them. Well yes, but she doesn't try and talk to him about NOT breeding so extensively, and he doesn't some up with one thin dime to help with the resulting vet costs. He's no dummy, he is getting rid of old baggage and at the same time she looks good for 'rescuing' these dogs.

This woman is NOT a professional rescue organization. I KNOW she thinks she's doing a good thing, and she is trying to keep these pugs from being euthanized, but no one has tried to shut this man down, no one has tried to make him understand to not breed a bitch until she is skin and bones & no one has made him financially accountable or at least get the pug vet care. I said as much and have been shunned from that forum.

Rescue, to me, is a 'catch-22' situation. Most backyard breeders and puppymill operators know that THEY don't have to take any responsibility for these dogs, there will always be a rescue operation out there somewhere to foot the bills. Rescues do wonderful work, but they are often in the position of having to take sickly, old dogs, bred to the point of death, try to put them back together and give them a good life somewhere.

The ONLY solution I see is shutting down the puppymills entirely. Unfortunately, that task is mind-boggling. Small steps have been taken, but a nationwide effort, including boycotting any and ALL pet stores that sell puppies is what is necessary.

<<<<stepping down off my soapbox......

[DantePugs]

It is a catch-22, no doubt about that, MaryJo.

The best case scenario, IMO, is one where education and law would tilt the balance of power to the dogs...so to speak. The hope is that Rescue orgs would continue to do their work to help those dogs already alive and in need, while education and law would be working at the same time to reduce the number of dogs which will end up in need in the future.

In this little Utopia of mine, we would leave no dog behind...And crush the millers over time, slowly but surely.

Unfortunately, this is about as much a pipedream as global peace. Until or unless it become a reality, sometimes all we can do is take it upon ourselves to try to do some good in the here and now, in any way we can, in the hopes the future will be better.

[Tramshed]

Dante

I had a great big long piece in response, but for some reason it wouldn't post. I'm now off my soapbox and am trying to keep the responses small (work and being busted by my boss for being on forum etc.)

You are making some assumptions in your response but the points you move to are well founded. I still believe it comes down to what we view as responsible breeding. That comes with education and to some level with experience. We don't know what experience the initial writer has and we can only asume to their intentions. The point here is that do we have the right to condemn the amateur breeder who does what they do out of love from the breed and bunch them in with puppymills? (who as far as I am concerned ARE the scum of the earth). The decision ends up being defined by the breeders actions.

My personal opinion is that there is a large gray area out there and I don't have a problem with amateur breeders who do their research, love the breed and are responsible about what they do. (Contracts, insurance, protection for the puppies, not breeding too many litters, not breeding herediatry issues etc.). This may be an answer to the backyard breeders who are currently meeting a demand for puppies.

I DO have a major problem with Backyard breeders. I think they prey on the emotions of people and care nothing for the health, (both emotional and physical) of the dogs that they breed. My greatest wish would be to put the backyarders through the pain they inflict on the dogs in their possession. I think everyone here would agree with that sentiment

I also however do have a problem with people assuming that professional breeding is the only way to go forward. This hasn't worked in the past as demand for puppies has outstripped supply and has been one of many factors that has led to backyard breeding (in my opinion)

There has to be a third way. We have to find a way of putting the breeders out of business but also ensuring that every puppy, every adult dog and every senior finds a great home. Maybe responsible amateur breeders is one answer...I don't know. But we need to start thinking about other options because right now, breed rescue is swamped. They are struggling to aid the dogs that are coming into them, with limited funding. They are fighting a battle at the back end of this process and they are putting in a fantastic effort.

The trouble is that on the front end of this, the mills keep churning. We have to think about how we cure the disease instead of how we contain it. To find the cure, we need to open up all areas of dialogue to find out what causes it and to change things.

I'm not trying to upset people. I do want to get questions like this out into the open because we all have a legitimate interest in this subject. We are currently losing the war against the puppymillers. This has to change. To do this we need to take a good long hard look at what we do, why the mills exist and how do we stop them

Maryjo. I agree with your sentiments. The person you has spoken about has not helped the situation. But she is saving a life.

That's important.

How do we help her now so that she doesn't have to save any more?

p.s. Damn... Is that soapbox still here....

[M'Dear Pug]

Hi Ivor,

I agree and I think you've written a very well composed response. I wish there were some answers - and I honestly believe some progress has been made as far as puppymill regulation, but I can't see an end to them.

I know you're 100% correct about rescue - and Lord knows Chinese pugs aren't the only breed-specific rescue. We naturally see and hear more about pug rescue but the same problems touch all breeds...the pet industry is huge and consumers are going to buy, some will make informed choices, others will make spontaneous decisions that often end in pain and heartache. Look at the number of pets who are euthanized every year in U.S. public shelters - it is staggering. Hundreds of thousands of innocent pets destroyed routinely while new ones are being born just as routinely and it doesn't seem like one person in a thousand could care less.

The over-population of dogs in the world is a sad commentary to me - but like many other ongoing tragic universal problems, I simply don't have any idea on earth how it will ever be controlled.

Ann

[DantePugs]

You are making some assumptions in your response but the points you move to are well founded. I still believe it comes down to what we view as responsible breeding. That comes with education and to some level with experience. We don't know what experience the initial writer has and we can only asume to their intentions. The point here is that do we have the right to condemn the amateur breeder who does what they do out of love from the breed and bunch them in with puppymills? (who as far as I am concerned ARE the scum of the earth). The decision ends up being defined by the breeders actions.

Super long post ahead :!:

I made no assumptions. All I did was simply state what the statements the "author" made likely indicate.. then I presented a scenario which does indeed occur daily in this country. If the post was real, the author got that reply because whoever read it saw the very same thing I did in the author....The tell tale signs of someone who wasn't educated or knowledgeable on the subject.

No, we don't know with 100% certainty what education or experience this person had on the subject...We don't know who the author was, or even if it was an actual post made by a real person.

I have to be frank here....I just don't see where this whole "comdemnation" angle is coming from in response to this particular scenario. The "author" who was looking to breed was not comdemned by anyone.

That "author" received a response which was clearly aimed at making the "author" aware of what breeding responsibly entails...Whether that breeding activity is done by a "professional" or an "ameteur".

That is all it was. It was neither rude, nor was it insulting. It was plain, matter of fact information that would serve well, those who are willing to educate themselves.

I could understand people finding that reply offensive or judgemental if the author had stated he/she had done all the research and still got that reply. If, for example, the response to the authors post was from a professional breeder who insisted this person shouldn't breed despite having the necessary education and experience simply because he/she wasn't a "professional".

But that isn't the case here.

At worst, the author received a reply that likely wasn't what they wanted to hear....Perhaps it would have been better or friendlier or nicer if the author received a warmer reply...One that was more sensitive and more gentle. That would certainly have been what I'd have prefered to see in a response to that author...

But it wasn't, and that's life. The intent of the response, in my opinion, was clearly one which had the best interest of the author and dogs in mind.

I do agree with much of what you said in your post...However IMO, dog buyers fuel the puppy mill industry and prevent the emergence of an adequate supply of reputable breeders (whether professional or ameteur) to fulfill the demand.

Mills wouldn't exist if everyone seeking to buy dogs would educate themselves on the subject...And there would likely be a greater number of responsible breeders out there were it not for the puppy mills. An educated buying public would force dog manufacturers (for lack of a better term) to produce a better product, same is it would and sometimes does in any other industry.

Puppy mills, as we know them today could not exist in this climate because they are low cost, high profit operations which have an outlet (pet shops) for sales of their product. Pet shops which sell pets could not exist either if the buying public was educated because pet shops are retailers to the wholesaling puppy mills. They are inextricably connected...If the buying public was educated, pet shops would not be able to sell mill dogs, and puppy mills would go under in a hearbeat.

If people would simply take some time to read, educate and research before they buy, and then exercise some patience, we'd have a lot fewer puppy mills out there filling the demand for dogs...The greater the number of educated buyers, the fewer the number of puppy mills that would exist...It's a simple equation. People would then understand why it is in their own best interests to purchase from sources other than puppy mills...And they'd be willing to wait for their demand to be fulfilled by acceptable sources...rather than needing to get their puppy yesterday.

I see this very similar to the manner in which so many people purchase cars...There is ample information available for people to use which would help them get a good price on a decent car, if they utilize this research and exercise a little patience....But for some unfathomable reason, even in the information age in which we exist, people still walk into car dealerships and purchase cars, many with terrible repair records, for $3,000 over dealer cost when the dealer would sell that same car for $2,500 less to an educated buyer.

The same thing can be said of the manner in which far too many people go about purchasing dogs. There are scores of books and web sites, including ours, which go to great lengths to provide people the information needed so that they can protect their own best interests when buying a dog and make an educated decision. All this information (freely and readily available) and a little patience could be used to make a good dog purchasing decision, and yet people still purchase from disreputable sources.

Ultimately, in my opinion, if more people utlized the resources available, and exercised some patience, the puppy mill industry would dry up. In it's place, to fulfill the demand for dogs, more reputable breeders would spring up and fill the need.

These breeders would be a mix of already reputable breeders, those ametuers you describe and probably large scale production facilities which would resemble mills in size, but not in practice.

It is, in my opinion, too easy to site the schism which exists today between the "professionals" and "everyone else" and to suggest that this plays a significant role in preventing an adequate supply of responsible breeders from existing.

I don't know a single reputable breeder who would turn away someone who was willing to apprentice with them, regardless of whether or not that apprentice was seeking to become professional, or seeking be ameteur. Most reputable breeders are more than eager to take on apprentices, and to show them how to breed the right way so that both people and dogs benefit from the endeavor.

The problem is that most people seeking to breed are not looking to become professional, or amateur, nor are they seeking to do it for the love of the breed.

They're seeking to breed to make money. Or to carry on the family lines. Or because they want another dog but they don't wish to buy pay for it. Or because they think if they breed with their own dog, they will end up with a carbon copy of that dog. Or because everyone in their family wants a dog like theirs...or because dogs make "great" Christmas presents...etc, etc.

They don't do the research. They don't take the time to learn as apprentices. They don't read books. They don't consult vets while they're doing it. They don't care who they sell to. They don't select appropriate breeding candidates and so on.

They don't do any of the things, or possess any of the traits of a reputable or responsible breeder, regardless of what status (professional or ameteur) we want to give them.

The plain fact of the matter is that there just aren't all that many people out there stepping up to compete with puppy mills...And you know what? We can't blame the professionals or the schism for that.

If people really want to be responsible breeders, as you term it (though I prefer to use the term reputable) they really shouldn't care what detractors say .If you want to do something, and you want to do it the right way, then you do it. If you want to learn about something, you ask questions, take all the responses you get, including those you may not immediately agree with or like, think about them and form your own opinion.

To end this overly long post, all I can add is to suggest that the real power and ability to solve this problem rests in the hands of the people who buy dogs. The power comes in the form of education and knowledge, and the resources necessary to obtain these are freely and readily available.

Whether people choose to exercise this power is the bottom line determining factor as to whether or not puppy mills will continue to exist. We can peck away at this issue like a Woodpecker to a tree, or we can take a chainsaw to it and cut it off at the stump. It's up to us.

[kentuckypugs]

What an interesting thread! Anyway,

I found the article very educational and honest. Maybe it was a little "over the top" but it left me, and I assume others, thinking. It was honesty such as the breeder that allowed me to make and informed choice about breeding. The breeder where I purchased Sophie from, was what many would call a professional breeder. She shows pugs, has champions, travels all over the US with her pugs, etc. I wanted a black pug girl and she didn't have any. But, she had a pick of the litter from the stud, and hence came Sophie. Sophie is a show quality pug. She asked me if I would be interested showing and breeding Sophie. She said she would show her, work with her and would also breed her with my assistance when the puppies arrived. She also said that the biggest emotional gamble on breeding is that something could go wrong and I could lose Sophie. She explained that pugs have problems sometimes giving birth and that additional medical care could be needed. She was very upfront and honest about what would be expected. It would take a lot of time and commitment on my part as well as trust. I didn't need to think it over, and I quickly replyed "No". But I did allow her the chance to educate me in this subject matter because I saw her as the expert. I am so grateful for her honesty, because I remember when we purchased Stonewall, that I thought he would be just grand to stud him out and get a puppy. Why, having him registered with the AKC was the only thing I needed, or so I thought. I never acted on this, but it did cross my mind and thank goodness I had a breeder willing to educate me.

As an educator, you realize that you may only create a spark in one student, but that does not make you a failure, but a success. That is what I see in regards to informing about breeding. People may not have liked that person's response, but it may have hit home with one person.

Being involved with two breed specific rescues, you see the same situations across the board. I have never dealt with a person running a mill or even a back yard breeder. However, I do know just from dealing with childrens' parents, that sometimes it is just like preaching to the choir in that no matter what you say, they are not going to listen and it is best just to keep your mouth shut and go on. Rescue will be here to pick up the pieces and we can only hope that those bitches or studs that we do rescue will learn to love and be happy.

Michelle

[Karla]

I thought I would jump in here and post my .02 cents on this matter. Have many friends on this forum, just no time in recent months to be very active, although I find myself without a television and after a recent move and am always intrigued with people's views on puppymills and breeding, so hence my post.

Not that it is anything to be proud of necessarily, but I do think I have a very realistic view of puppymills; the way they operate; the people that operate them, etc. I live in the middle of puppymill country and have been heavily involved in puppymill rescue for the last 4 years of my life. I have, however, backed way off......have moved and changed my phone number to get away from the number of dogs that need help. I have been emotionally drained and just simply cannot go on like I was. Burn out is a good word, I guess. A lot of guilt comes with that though, believe me.

I have a hard time with anybody who breeds dogs.....plain and simple. There are just too many out there that need homes, purebred and otherwise, and my heart breaks when I think of the number of dogs euthanized each day in shelters throughout the country. In "my" perfect world, there would be NO breeding of any kind until every dog had a home. Not realistic, I know......just a dream for me.

We all have different personalities and strengths that can allow us to help in different ways. My way was always the individual face of the dog -- and that is as far as I ever looked, or cared to (that also includes many mixed breed strays that crossed my path). Never was a radical activist, or interested in the politics of the situation, but I appreciated and admired the heck out of the people that called those areas their "forte" in life. I help the dogs....somebody else wrote the letters to their senators, or picketed the pet stores, etc. I've been called a "puppymill outlet" by many (mostly the "reputable" breeders); also been called a "bleeding heart animal right's activist" by the puppymillers......there were days right before I changed my phone number that I was getting at least one call every day about a pug or two or three or more that needed a place to go. They knew they could call Karla and find a place for their dogs. I was "used" and probably not helping the big picture, but I surely did help a whole lot of dogs have a decent life. Nurturing and socializing a poor dog that has had a suck life is something that I loved every minute of it. I've been in puppymills that were so clean you could eat off of the floor. I've been in puppymills that had 1-acre fenced areas for the dogs to run and get their exercise. I've been in puppymills where "sundowners" were the choice of kennel set-ups, which were nothing more than glorified rabbit hutches with wire floors, and I've seen a few that were not even THAT good. I've met a few puppymillers that truly loved their dogs.....I've met many that had hearts of stone and were truly despicable human beings.

If I thought that there could ever be an end to the puppymill industry, I would probably still be doing rescue. The fact of the matter is, there is a ton of money to be made in mass producing purebred dogs for profit. Until these people find a way to make a living that pays more.......it isn't going to change.

I used to think that only when no one EVER bought a pup in a petstore, would puppymills go out of business. Nowadays, many of the puppymills have their own websites, sell and transport their dogs straight out the door to homes, and completely sidestep the brokers and pet stores. They can actually make more money without going the pet store route.

I wish I had answers, but as others have said, shutting down the mills would take an act of God himself, I believe. Everyone can educate though. I am always amazed at the number of people out there that have never even heard of a puppymill.

Anyway, just wanted folks to know that where I sit, things aren't changing. Puppymillers are getting smarter, the rules are getting tighter, and it continues. There is nothing illegal about breeding dogs and as long as they follow the minimal guidelines that are set up, there is no shutting them down. The ones out there that ARE illegal are the ones that websites and people involved in organizations like nopuppymillls.com are working to shut down. One thing is for sure also....the illegal mills aren't working with rescue. I can only speak for Missouri, but I do know that the illegal puppymills are getting fewer and fewer.

[M'Dear Pug]

Karla,

You can't imagine how good it is to hear from you. Your ears must have been burning this afternoon because I just left Joy at her son's home and we were discussing when we had joined PugZone and what we both had learned about pugs through the years.

I said one of my earliest memories was trying to figure-out who Amy/Karla was, what was pug rescue, why you were attending a dog auction, and what were puppymills. As of 1999, I had never, ever, heard of either rescue, auctions or puppymills.

Now Joy is doing pug rescue in Oklahoma City and I like to think somehow, someway, through PugVillage I pass on the things I've learned to a new generation of pug-owners.

Anyone living where you live and caring about animal welfare would be overwhelmed. I know you really are in the heart of puppymill country and have no doubt what that environment would have done to me. I can't imagine that the statistics would show any other one person making the difference you have made in the lives of so many pugs. There are no frontlines any closer to the battle than where you live...and no stress any harder to bear.

Joy has had a fit over Gumdrop ever since she got to Shreveport. I wish you could see her and see what a character she is today - 3 1/2 years after you literally saved her life.

I know I don't have any answers. It makes me feel physically ill just knowing what goes on at our local shelter. I cannot go there anymore. I've told local friends involved with animal welfare that I'll do anything I can to help in any other way than actually going to the pound and seeing all those beautiful, innocent dogs and cats who want nothing on earth but a loving home and knowing 99% will probably be destroyed. I just can't handle it anymore. I run away but I can never get away from the thoughts that are always on my mind about those poor animals and I definitely understand your position.

Ann

[Victoriasdad]

To answer the question as to what I found obnoxious about that post I would suggest to you all that the response was dripping with sarcasm, techincal language, and an "I-know-better-than-you-attitude." This is my perception, not science or a fact, To those that have asserted that response was merely issued as a factual "composition" I would advise that "reading between the lines" often reveals that which is not said outright. In this case the message was clear: "I am breader, I show dogs, you don't know what you are talking about, don't even think you are cut out for the work I do."

I think the post is bogus to be honest, but whether it was real or not I found it typical of the messages I've seen from the "experts." Just remember...experts built Titanic and Noah built the Arc! Sometimes the experts aren't.