The cost of breeding

[Shellyj]

Check out this link...I thought it was quite interesting.

http://www.cyberpet.com/cyberdog/art.../breeding1.htm

[mwbbe]

Thanks so much for sharing. Definately made the picture more realistic and definately gave me a good laugh. Will have to share with some of my other friends and pass it on to the other boards.

[Victoriasdad]

I found that post amusing, but probably not for the reasons that the person who responded would have liked. You see, this is the problem with breeding. The people who compete in shows insist, without exception, that the way they do things is the right way...period. The only way. Why does every breeding have to be from champion lines? Why do people do more DNA testing with dogs than with humans? Most people probably have no business breeding dogs, but unfortunately, seemingly everytime (of course there are exceptions) someone inexperienced in breeding brings the topic up, a response is issued so as to intimidate, belittle, embarrass, or condemn the individual. It's a good thing the people teaching school don't adopt the same dogmatic (no pun intended) attitude that the self-righteous breeders represented by that response exhibit. Our poor children would be afraid to ever ask a question

[DantePugs]

I don't see any attempt at embarassment, intimidation, belittling or condemnation in that piece.

All I see in the piece is a well constructed composition covering subject matter which is normally presented in list form, or some other standard manner....And in all liklihood, one that garners more attention, and gets its point across more effectively.

[Lemon]

I'm curious as to what you found belittling or self-righteous about that post. I saw it as a factual response from someone who obviously cares a great deal about dogs. It was as much about health and cost as it was about conformation. I don't intend to open a can of worms, but as often as you've posted about this, I still don't understand why it would be so awful if every breeding *were* from champion lines.

Lucas, do you breed pugs?

[gizzie]

OMG - If we asked our husbands to be all those questions - having children would be a nightmare. But I am not an expert on breeding- so I am not getting involved in this one

Regards
Debbie

[Shellyj]

I am not an expert either. How I found that was I also belong to a pug forum through yahoo in Oregon. Some guy came on and asked if anyone was interested in using his dog as a stud because he wants another puppy. Well, "advertising" your dog is not allowed on this site. The woman who replied said very nicely that this conduct was inappropriate for the site. She attached the link.

I too, kind of thought the letter was condescending. However, I question the reality of the post. I am not too sure that this is a real reply. I think it was created to give inexperienced people an idea of everything involved. When I was reading it I kept thinking that if this was really a reply to my question, I would be in tears before the end.

I am only playing devil's advocate here, but how in the heck are people supposed to be come educated on a topic unless they ask a question. Granted, they should not offer their pet until they are fully educated.

I don't know, I think if I were to ask a question of "What all is involved in breeding I would get a nice response. Maybe it is just that these people are offering their dogs without knowing what to expect.

Sorry to babble.

Shelly and Cajun

[jwestoverpug]

Hi Shelly,

I can assure you that if you, or anyone for that matter asked a question looking for information about breeding that you would get a nice response. That is quite different than someone looking to offer their dog at stud. The link you posted is a slight exageration.

In the next couple of months we're going to be breeding one of our pugs. She's a finished CH. We're hoping to improve on her traits, and hopefully get a nice puppy to show. I'm keeping track of my expenses, and if anyone would like I'd be happy to post what the various costs we have are, so anyone interested in breeding can get an idea of the financial cost involved. There is also an emotional cost too (possible loss of the mother, or the pups). I'm not sure if this is appropriate for this list, but it's something I'd be willing to do.

Jesse

[Tramshed]

Ok, my two pennies worth

The breeding question is always a emotive subject. The link posted brings up (in my opinion) two out of the three corners of what I would classify as the breeding triangle (Professional show breeders, amateur breeders and Backyard profit breeders)

If you think about it, all of us here have opinions that fall somewhere in this mix, (though I suspect very few if any of us support back yard breeding) the question here is when does amateur breeding stop and professional breeding start?, whats the dividing line? and what happens when people are talking about different areas of this issue?

What we have here is crossed lines of communication.

What I read from the link (taking it at face value) is that a pug owner who loves his/her pug wants to breed him once before they has him neutered. They are probably thinking on sentimental grounds along the lines that their pug is wonderful and it would be great for those good qualities to continue. (Hence they do not want money for this) But considering they only want to breed him once and not for profit, they are showing a certain level of responsibility about the breed. This is (in my opinion) an amateur breeder)

If true, from the part of the people who are inquiring, its a genuinely felt and honest view to hold. It ties in closely to how we interact as humans (OK maybe not the breeding once thing). However as the cynic that I am I have to agree that it probably is exaggerated to some extent.

They received a response back from a professional breeder who is outlining what THEY are looking for before they let one of their bitches breed. They are breeding professionally and it shows. They want certain protections to ensure that they have the highest chance of whelping a breed champion and ensure the continuance of the pug breed to stated standards. They take the issue seriously and are outlining what it takes from their perspective. They ARE talking cost because there is an economic and emotional value to what they do and a cost incurred with that value. They are basically outlining what needs to be done if he want's his Pug to breed with a professional breeders bitch. They summarised the professional breeding environment and it sound pretty accurate and is very educational.

Consider this. The Professional breeder who responded IS trying to be educational and informative. They are probably viewing the writer of the mail as someone potentially starting out as a Breeder and informing them of what it takes to suceed.

Also, keep in mind that the people with the Pug who originally asked about breeding their pug never asked to do it professionally. They asked if some one would be willing to breed a female pug with their male to have puppies to carry on the line. They thought that there would be other pug owners out there who feel the same way they do and would (hopefully) be considering doing the same thing (Breed once and carry on the qualities that makes their pug special and then have them fixed).

This is a matter of perspective. No one is claiming to be right or wrong. The response from the breeder doesn't advocate that only professional breeders should be breeding pugs. It shows their perspective to the breeding question. Belittling and self righteous is too harsh to apply here because no where in the articles has anyone said that professional breeding is the only way to breed pugs.

It does raise some points to consider. But if you think about it, it is a worthwhile debate. It centers around what we classify as responsible breeding. Responsible breeding does not necessarily mean professional breeding nor does it cut out amateur breeders. It means what it says. Responsible.

Everyone's views on this will differ to some degree. That is a good thing because it encourages us all to think.

Apologies for the lenght of this post. I hope I haven't sent anyone to sleep reading it

[DantePugs]

Well, just to chime in a bit more....

It is more than likely that the piece is intended as a one size fits all response to the type of question attached to it. More like a "talking point", kinda like politicians use to address questions and frame their answers a certain way.

Having said that, even were the question asked real, the poster wasn't asking any questions....All the poster said was "I'm looking to breed...."

It's not as if this person was really asking any questions about breeding, or seeking information as to what breeding entails...It just said he/she was "looking to breed".

The "question" also contained a statement which is often sited as being not a good reason to breed....'to carry on his namesake' or something to that effect. The prime reasons this type of statement is frowned upon are;

A. It indicates the person is likely expecting a resulting puppy to be like the dog they already have which isn't any better than a 50/50 proposition and;

B. Given (A) above, and the fact that there are already a truck-load of living, available Pug pups for sale and rescue already, why make more?

Couple (A) and (B) with the statement that this persons dog is "papered", and the "question" asked is sure to cause red flags to fly because in the realm of breeding, and pretty much everywhere, being "papered" means nothing.

Let me present a brief scenario:

Suppose this person does exist and did ask that question for real...And then suppose that I came along and replied, offering my bitch for a pairing...Only I'm not DantePugs, but rather DanteGreedy.....I'm a bad guy....I need some money...I want to make a quick buck....

So I contact this person, and agree to give her pick of the litter....I load up my Pug bitch to meet so we can seal the deal and churn out a few puppies....

But I don't bring CoCo with me....Oh no, I've got another Pug I'd rather use...Her name is Daisy.

Daisy's a nice Pug, and she looks pretty enough...But she's not well. She had a severe degree of Luxating Patella which required $1,500 surgery to fix. She has Elongated Soft Palatte, Hip Dysplasia, Stenotic Nares and she's a very sweet Pug....But she doesn't like children. I don't know why, it's just one of those things...Anytime a child goes near Daisy, she tries to bite the child.

So we put Daisy and Jake together, have a litter of 4 and I give her pick of the litter...She goes home with this puppy and all goes well for a days and then the vet check takes place....The new pup has severe Luxating Patella, Stenotic Nares and an oddly wicked temperment...This person wonders what's wrong....Why her new pup isn't anything close to being another Jake, as she was hoping to get out of the deal.

She called me....left a bunch of sorrowful messages on my answering machine...Why is she bothering me? What do I care about her problems?!

I'm a happy guy....I got 3 Pug pups out of the deal. I don't know if they're healthy, I really don't care so long as I can sell them.

I tell ya, I'm very lucky...I found two buyers, and sold two pups for $500 each. The buyers were a little concerned because they both noticed their new pups limping a bit...Good thing they believed me when I told them it was just slippery floors and some normal puppy getting their legs under them stuff.

I got $1,000....I was hoping for $1,500 altogether but I haven't been able to sell that 3rd puppy. I'm really getting tired of taking care of it. I have to feed it and pay for food and shots and vet care...Damn thing is pooping all over my house. Crying all night long.

I'm sick of this dog. I'm done with it. It ain't worth nothin to me and is eating into my profits from the other two....There's a rescue group 100 miles from me but man, I'm busy....The pound is full...Nobody wants this damn dog......Maybe I'll just take a ride tonight and let it off on the highway. Good riddance!

_________

Don't think this doesn't happen folks....It happens everyday.

Now, maybe there are better ways than the posted article or whatever it was....I don't know, it's actually quite well thought out and could reach some people.

Put all the other stuff about who should breed, show dogs etc aside for a moment and ask yourself the following question:

Wouldn't you want to fully understand what you were getting yourself into

before you went ahead and decided you'd like to stud your dog out? That maybe, there's a lot to learn before making this decision? That perhaps you yourself could suffer harm and grief? That perhaps you'd be contributing to other people's sorrow and grief? That maybe you might be partly responsible for a Pug puppy getting tossed out on the highway and run down?

That article may not be what some people want to hear....But you know what? Sometimes what we want to hear and what we need to hear are two very different things.