Pugs of Color Question

[Winston's Mom]

Dante,

Obviously you have studied more into the depths of genetics than I have. I have to get my hands around part one before I can dive into the next part which is the placement of color and its distribution.

That is a very interesting and plausible point of view. So you think even DNA testing would not give any more information on whether there is another breed crossed in the brindle if it was say 5+ generations back???

I see the point, I'm like others, very curious and just interested in this subject.

[Shellyj]

I found this website called pugsrbrindle2.com. They seem to be in the business of promoting brindles as all pug. I don't know, and don't really care what color they are, they are still pugs in my eyes.

[DantePugs]

I don't know...my knowledge of DNA testing is limited.

I think though that DNA testing is a comparative technology...Meaning that in a case like testing the purity of a dog breed, it would be necessary to have something to compare the sample to, in order to give the sample a value.

For example, it's my understanding that if we took a DNA sample of a black Pug, and isolated the color gene (to use what I'm sure is not a scientific term) as black, we'd know the gene came from a black Pug without comparing it to other genes from other dogs...But only because we knew in advance it came from a black Pug.

If on the other hand we just happened to have a coded color gene of black from a dog, we'd need to compare that coded gene with other DNA samples and find a match before we could draw the conclusion it came from any given breed, in this case specifically a black Pug.

In other words, it's not the coded gene alone that tells us it is from a black Pug, but rather some other piece of knowledge/info (knowing in advance it was taken from a black Pug) or a comparison and subsequent match with the genetic coding of Pugs which would tell us the coded gene came from a Pug.

If I'm correct about this, and I may not be, in the case of a Brindle it seems to make sense that the answer would rest in the gene responsible for the 3rd color, which is neither black nor fawn.

There would then have to be a match of that gene, to that of a pure, 100% gauranteed Pug in order to say with any certainty that the Brindle was 100% Pug throughout it's entire ancestral line.

As far as color and distribution goes....Think of it like painting by numbers where you paint a picture in which each space is divided, and inside each space there is a number which tells you what color to fill in the space with.

With a Pug, we have a standard which is like that pre-numbered painting....The standard says that black should go in certain places, and fawn should go in certain places...and some of these places are more densely colored than others.

For example, the mask should be densely black, while the stripe along the spine of a fawn Pug should be of a particular density...not as black as the mask, but not so faint you can only see it in a certain light.

Now picture genes as the thing that fills in the colors and puts them where they're suppossed to be...the equivalent of the person painting the picture.

Genes fill in the color, putting black on the mask, along the spine, the ears etc...The closer two mated Pugs are to the standard, the more likely it is that the genes of their offspring will put the black in the appropriate place, and in the appropriate density....again, according to the standard.

Breeding fawn to black potentially could result in black going where it shouldn't on a fawn puppy....On the other hand, it could also be done to refine black markings on a fawn Pug whose markings are for example less dense than they should be according to the standard....

Even something like eye coloration is determined by genes...this is why there are some Pugs which don't have PK, but still have brown pigment deposits in the whites of their eyes...A perfect example of some Pugs being over-engineered to the point where genes are missing their mark so to speak. We've played with their faces so much...tried to flatten their noses, get their ears and eye shape just so etc... that over time, we've literally altered the phsyical construction of their heads, and effected the genetic distribution of pigment so that it now often goes where it isn't suppossed to go.

Very interesting stuff.

[tibkitty12]

Dante,

Wow lots of info.

I am not opposed to the fact that maybe another breed snuck in and passed on some brindle genes to a pug long ago.

I like the brindle coloration, and I have found many folks that really would like a unique looking pug.

It really doesn't matter to me how Pixie came about, as most dogs as you stated had some cross-breeding done to acheive certain colors, coats, noses, temperments etc..

As far as conformation, I think pixie is a typical pug and as sweet as pie.

I want to thank you all for your input, this has been and I am sure will continue to be a intriguing topic. Genetics is a lot to grasp, but very interesting all the same.

[Almandine]

What interesting pics on the pugsrbrindle2 site. That Tiger is certainly handsome, although I was curious about his feet. They suit him very nicely, of course, but are noticeably more oval than my pugs' feet. I wonder if this is a feature in the brindles and whether the white blaze is common too.

Fella's son (black pa, fawn ma) is black with a white blaze on his chest and I have seen a fair few elsewhere.

Looking at those pictures put me in mind of bullmastiffs!

[LindaR/pugma]

I also was looking at him really hard and from looking at the shape of his head I thought I was seeing bulldog. My Zoe has a white blaze on her chest, I thought that was very common in black pugs, maybe just in this country?

[tibkitty12]

I finally got in touch with Pixie's breeder, and got the true colors of her ancestors at least 3 generations back. On her sires' side there are a lot of brindle / fawn breedings. Only one blackie on her dams side and that is a 3rd generation. The rest are all fawns.

I looked at that brindle site and almost considered breeding Pixie to that mack truck, I mean pug. I like his face and chest, but the back end is a bit thin, and it bothers me that they don't really have a lot of info on his health. I read their "agreement" or contract. If I am going to breed her, I want someone that has had their male physically examined and tested for soundness as that is what I am doing with her.

He does look a bit like a bully in form, and that is not what I want. Pixie looks like a box on legs, I just wish she was fatter.

[jwestoverpug]

I was looking at Tiger of the woods (I think that's name) pedigree. It just doesn't make sense to me. I have always been told that brindle is dominant, the only color that is dominant to brindle is black. His gr. dam, and gr. sire on the dams side are both fawn, but produced a brindle dog. That just doesn't add up. In my opinion there's something fishy there. A pedigree is only as good as the people who are breeding the dogs, anyone can claim that x dog produced such and such litter.

Jesse