Hey guys! I just want to vent a little here, because some people are really just.. ugh. So I post occasionally on a livejournal community about pugs, and there are some really terrible breeders in the community. I got into a little drama with one.. and I GOT KICKED OUT! Read this exchange.. the backyard breeder's comments are italicized, mine are in normal font.. and tell me if you can possibly believe that I actually got kicked out of a community for my *controversial* (lol! ) statements:
I am writing this post in response to dawnjauns post detailing her backyard breeder status. It is also in response to some of the uninformed people who seemed to support her lasseiz-faire breeding practices. I apologize to make this a community-wide post.. but there are many people here that are pretty unaware of the dog world in general, and I think they need to know more about it. I love pugs, and I try to educate myself about them as much as possible and so I love letting other people know what they need to in order to better understand dog breeding and not be duped into placidity by bad breeders like dawnjuan.
I think a lot of people misunderstood me and my pug breeding. My pugs are my PETS. They live in my house, they sleep in my bed. It's not like I have a puppy mill in my back yard and let the pugs proliferate. My pugs are not exploited at all. But I still "cash in" on the breeding. My pugs aren't papered, and there's no use paying out the ass to start a lineage- which is ALL AKC papering IS. They make money to keep a family tree of the dogs. They don't control the breeding or anything to do with that. It's nothing but overpriced lineage tracking.
This is just simply not true. Registries were created to certify pedigrees of purebred dogs, so that a breeder can make claims on their dog's lineage with actual evidence as well as to host and regulate breeding stock evaluations (shows). Registeries and corresponding clubs also provide conformition and standards to breed by. These are all important. For example: The widespread overbreeding of the modern pug dog has led to a disastrous influx of badly bred and unhealthy pugs that only slightly resemble the breed standard. Had breeders used the AKC breed standard as a guide in their breeding as well as implemented health testing, their puppies would be not only close to the standard but also healthy.
AKC membership and papering is not only relatively inexpensive, but also invaluable in maintaining a professional breeding program wherein quality, not quantity matters. Think about this: If the breeder you buy from won't spend the money (the negligable amount of money, by the way, less than $100 a litter) to paper your dog, why should you beleive that they spend time caring for it? Vet-checking it? Screening it for genetic abnormalities? They didn't, because they all cost money, too.. breeding dogs costs money.
There is AKC fraud, however, and there are far too few AKC employees to monitor each and every litter submission, so the presence of AKC papers in a breeding program is essential but not necessarily a guarentee of any one dog's merits. A reputable breeder will exhibit health testing and guarentees, a good knowledge of dogs, genetics, and what it means to breed to better the breed. They will never just "make puppies" because they want to. They will take responsiblity for the dogs THEY CREATE!
There are also other registeries in the US, such as the CKC (Continental Kennel Club.. not to be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club), UKC, APR, APRI and on and on. These registeries are not legitimate and were created by and for puppymillers and backyard breeders who did not want to conform to the AKC's breeding/housing standards. They are ALL sure signs of bad breeders.
I started out with an adopted pug- BB- the black one. Her previous owners let her run around the neighborhood when she was in heat and "wanted to get rid of her". We didn't know she was pregnant when we first got her - but she had a litter of mutts. After that, we would hire papered studs and breed her- skipping a year or 2 between litters. We kept one of her most beautiful babies- Princess- and breed her as well.
Our customers are interested in having a family pet. They want one that is a pug. That's why they don't care that they're paying for a dog without papers. People who are interested in show quality pugs wouldn't call US- we put right in the ad that our pugs aren't papered.
Unfortunatley, you don't seem to realize that reputable breeders produce (with the exception of a few stellar breeding programs) a majority of non-show quality pugs. There is no ethical reason for breeders like you to breed, except to add to the unwanted pet population and your bank account. I purchased my pug from a quality show breeder. Both of her parents are finished champions. She is a beautiful dog. She was a reasonable price. Her parents' hips and eyes were screened and OFA certified. Her littermate is already a finished champion. She is the furthest thing from a show quality pug, but still a wonderful companion and representative of the breed. There are many such puppies out there.. pet quality, reasonably priced (I know one excellent show breeder who sells her pet quality pups for only $600), and wonderful representatives of the breed. And buying from a reputable breeder supports ethical breeding and helps end puppymilling and backyard breeding, which lead to breed degradation and unwanted animals.
It's obvious that you don't care enough about the Pug breed to make a contribution to it by producing high-quality pet puppies. Instead, you choose to breed inferior dogs who were not OFA certified in order to make money and cute puppies.
As for screening customers- I can't just sell to my friends and family- I'd run out of customers quick! And strangers aren't going to ever say- "oh yeah- I am a bad pet owner" while being "screened". Purebred dogs - if they get "lost"- are easily adoptable in shelters. Especially the smaller breeds. And I am NOT going to tell my customers what they can and can't do with their own pets- "spay/neuter contracts"? That's THEIR business.
Again, you are incredibly ignorant regarding reality. Screening customers means asking them simple questions about pugs, requiring them to obtain at least minimal vet care and perhaps visiting homes. Do you not care enough about your pugs to make sure that they are going to a new home and DON'T end up in a shelter? Oh.. wait, nevermind, because.. if they DID end up in the shelter, then they would just get adopted anyway, right? Wrong. You don't care about the neglect and abuse they might suffer on the way to the shelter. You don't care about the litters of puppies they produced while "lost" (who are mutts, by the way, and who also sit in shelters waiting to be adopted. But no matter, they are small even if they aren't purebred or attractive, which is what most adopters want in a dog, right?) and you certainly couldn't be bothered to "screen" buyers to prevent it. You don't care that the vast majority of pugs that end up in shelters are there because of health reasons or age and that older, infirmed pugs are basically unadoptable. It doesn't bother you, because you are making a few bucks and it's easier not to think about.
Not only THAT- but if someone pays OUT THE ASS for a AKC registered pug- they're probably going to want to breed it! There's just no sense in shopping that diligently for a conformist pug with immaculate lineage to not show it/breed it. People like that are not interested in PETS. They're interested in money. My pugs are pets.
Again, honestly, I don't know that you are capable of basic reason. Understand that if you are buying from a reputable breeder, you are REQUIRED to alter it. Problem solved. AKC papers aren't the be-all-end-all, either. Reputable breeding is much more than that, as I've already explained. Also, buying a pet-quality pug from a reputable breeder gets you more than just a pretty pug with papers: it buys you years of knowledge and a breeder available any time, health guarentees, great temperaments reached through years if meticulous breeding as well as good conformation. It gets you a great representative of the breed as well as peace of mind.
I love them and enjoy breeding and raising the puppies- they're SO damn cute when they're little! And the joy of selling them- when people come to buy them- I just LOVE the look on their faces when they see the one they want to take home! It's just pure love. Many of my customers say that they had one as a childhood pet, or have another one, or had another one- and want another. I think once a pug owner- always a pug owner!! They're irresistable!
All true, but this doesn't qualify you to breed. I wouldn't trust you to pet my pug, let alone breed one. You are an example of the many issues and problems with the purebred dog world, and you foster the degredation of the conformation, health and temperament of the pug dog.
I suggest you visit pugs.com or pugvillage.com to learn more about pugs in general (as you demonstrate a lack of knowledge regarding the breed) and candylandpugs.com or dsquarepugs.com to look at some reputable breeder's websites.
Now, I know that the breeding debate will rage on and on forever.. but when I am confronted with an ACTUAL backyard breeder.. posting in the same community as I am.. I just get enraged. I love pugs too much!
Thanks for reading, guys!
Last edited by DantePugs; 06-30-2005 at 07:55 PM.
Well, I'll tell you what. I think you stood up for the truth. Backyard breeders all come on with that "my pugs are my pets" routine - ALL of them. I guarantee you the same customers who happily go home with a bargain-priced classified ad puppy run a very good chance of "paying out the ass" in future veterinary bills and immeasurable heartache if and when their irresponsibly bred puppy developes severe congenital problems that probably won't present themselves for several months.
What irritates me the most, what I think is so very tragic, is someone breeding pugs because "they enjoy breeding puppies" and take this idiotic position that they couldn't care less about the future of the puppies...you know, they've got a male and a female that look fairly healthy so, hey, go for it.
In all sincerity, anyone who banned you for standing up for the truth isn't worth worrying about. People like this breeder break my heart and make me furious at the same time - their ignorance and utter lack of compassion and integrity are every conscientious pug owner's worst nightmare and the harm they're doing to pug welfare in general is beyond comprehension.
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Frank, I moved your post here into the Pug Breeding forum as it's most appropriate for this forum topic.
What you're looking at in this breeder is someone who is trying to rationalize her way into legitimacy. Unfortunately, her rationalizations work to a great extent because what she says sounds "ok" to the perspective Pug owners out there who haven't done their research.
However, you know and I know, and most if not all of the Villagers in this forum know, that she is trying to make a buck...while at the same time trying very hard not to appear as if she's a backyard breeder.
What's that saying? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
I'll select just one of the many statements made here because addressing them I think would be helpful to any lurkers out there:
" Not only THAT- but if someone pays OUT THE ASS for a AKC registered pug- they're probably going to want to breed it! There's just no sense in shopping that diligently for a conformist pug with immaculate lineage to not show it/breed it. People like that are not interested in PETS. They're interested in money. My pugs are pets."
The plain fact is that the overwhelming majority of Pug owners do not breed, at all. We've got about 250 active Pug owning members here who post at least weekly....Of those 250 or so people, we've got, at most, 6 or 7 who have bred their Pugs not counting the professional breeders who post here, and we've got a few on our memberlist. That's a little under 3%. Even fewer buy a Pug, any Pug, to show.
People spend more to buy from reputable breeders because while there are no gaurantees, that is what gives us the best chance at having a healthy Pug and a positive Pug owning experience.
This breeder probably knows this to be true....but were she to admit it, well, she'd be out of business. Admiting it would be like McDonalds hanging out a sign that says "our Big Macs aren't very good, so you should go to Wendys".
My only other comment, because I can't resist is in response to the statement that no perspective Pug owner is going to say to a breeder that they wouldn't be a good Pug owner....
That's true, they wouldn't.....That's why a reputable breeder doesn't ask perspective buyers if they'd be good Pug owners. Instead, the reputable breeder asks questions and evaluates the answers they receive.
A reputable breeder takes the time and makes the effort to evaluate a perspective buyer because they care about the puppies they produce...They don't shrug their shoulders and sell the pup to anyone without making an effort to place their pups in appropriate homes.
I could dissect every statement this person made and punch holes in all of it, as you did, but I won't bother. Instead, I'll conclude with the following:
If someone were to make use of our handy dandy search feature and scan the forum for threads about bad breeders and then read those threads...One would very quickly and easily see a clear picture emerging as to what practices makes a breeder, disreputable.
That picture would look strikingly similar to this breeder you've quoted.
Last edited by DantePugs; 06-29-2005 at 11:37 PM.
I bred and showed dachshunds for many years and your statements as to what a breeder should be doing is absolutely correct. Our goal was to produce the best specimin of the breed in type and temperament. We were very careful where our pets went to and had multiple agreements with owners. Spay and neuter contracts were mandatory.
Now after doing so much rescue work I get to see the worst of what backyard breeders turn out. It is really sad. Unfortunately it continues to get worse because bad breeders, turn out bad dogs, that are bought from ignorant people, who hope to make a few bucks like "their breeder" does and they breen the bad prodgeny to develope offspring with even more problems.
Stick to your guns. We need more people like you.
Ugh - what a dropkick!! The interesting thing being that YOU were kicked off the forum!! I don't think she would last more than a couple of posts on THIS forum with an attitude like that!! I applaud your comments and integrity. I have had 6 pugs over 28 years. All of them bought from registered, long term breeders who exhibited their pugs and were members of all relevant organisations and clubs. And I have owned and exhibited 3 Australian Champions. Yet, I have never bred a litter. Why? Because, after all these years and experience with pugs, I believe that breeding is something best left in the hands of experts who know what they are doing, and are dedicated to improving the breed. This moron is what is wrong with our beloved breed - breeding for the buck while "claiming" that she loves her "pets". There are forum members who have bred the puggies for no other reason than wanting their offsping, and that is a whole other thing, done for the right reasons. I would not compare them to this stupid backyard breeder.
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Frank, I'm sorry you were banned from the site for stating facts. It is their loss not yours. This kills me to read. The first pug was adopted and bred and then her offspring was also bred. No reputable rescue or adoption agency would adopt out an unaltered animal. This person tries to disguise themselves by stating they are my pets and they sleep with me!! If you love your "pets" spay & neuter them for their health!!! It boggles my mind that once they are sold it's basically OH WELL do what you want with it, if you want to breed it go ahead! It's wrong and you can't talk to a brick wall. Unfortunately all this person sees is $$$ and you'll never change that.
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Obviously the other forum cannot handle the truth and educated people. I completely agree with Dante. She was looking for someone to justify her actions and ran into you. Your posts were articulate, showed you were educated and quite polite. If they are going to ban you for that then who needs them??? They obviously do not want to be educated like we do here on PV. I learned a lot from your posts that you made to her and am glad you are a member of our PV family!!!
Kind of makes me sick. Especially since my first 2 Pugs were purchased from people similar to this person. I was totally ignorant about pet ownership in general. Thank god I at least knew not to buy from the pet store. The first one had 2 Pugs and thought "it would be fun" to have puppies. It almost killed the mom. I thought I was so smart when I got the second. I didn't know what a backyard breeder was. I was very fortunate that my second boy was healthy. I've since learned (through my work in rescue) that many of her pups die from parvo!! I now understand a lot more, since I've fostered so many rejected Puags from "breeders" such as this one. I guess the general public is just ignorant about breeding. I can only hope that the public outcry of rescue organizations will help, but it will take time.
Thanks to everyone for their responses! I just needed to be validated a bit after taking a beating from about 25 people who commented on that exact post, telling me I was rude, egotistical, racist, sexist, anti-religion, anti-dog, anti-baby, anti-allgoodthingsintheworld and so on.
I love you guys!
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