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    mpersico is offline Village Puppy
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    Default Registered or Unregistered

    I have 2 pugs, I just got my second today, and she is a beautiful 8 week old baby. My pugs are not AKC registered, I do not intend to show them. Kiki (my 3 year old) has absolutely no health problems, she has no breathing issues, no eye or hip issues, and she's as fit as a fiddle. The breeders I bought her from had her parents on site, and they had no health issues either. My newest baby, Layla, was also bred unpapered, and her breeders had her parents and grandma on site, and all 3 generations looked beautiful, though they weren't "show quality".

    I see a lot of people saying that they should just spay or neuter any pugs that are not registered, and I'm not really sure how I feel about this. The nearest pug for rescue in my area is hundreds of miles away, and besides, there comes a point in everyone's life when they just want to get a puppy. I absolutely love pugs; don't want any other breed of dog. I looked at the pugs being sold with AkC registration and pugs from breeders who are not hobby breeders, but breeders who want to constantly improve the breed. They are EXPENSIVE. I am not sure what is wrong with having unregistered pugs and with breeding them responsibly. I understand why you don't breed animals with any kind of genetic health defects, but what is wrong with breeding a very healthy, happy, companion animal?

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    DappleDoxieStaff's Avatar
    DappleDoxieStaff is offline Village Royalty
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    The thing that is wrong with it is the gross overpopulation of dogs currently ... before you begin to think about breeding more dogs - take a tour of the local rescues in your area. Read CraigsList. Tour the pounds. Ask how many dogs die each day. Not just the 'Heinz 57's' ... the purebred "very healthy, happy, companion animals" ... bred by people just like you who wanted to let the average joe have a cheap pet. The dogs (and cats, and horses) are the ones who pay the price. Often that price is at least abuse, at the most their lives.

    Do the right thing ... spay and neuter your dogs and enjoy them as the amazing pets they are and leave the breeding to the qualified breeders ... pugs are among the hardest to safely breed and whelp. They often need cesareans, puppies fail to thrive & die, pug moms are not the best of mothers and the Humans wind up on bottle duty. It is not easy, or fun, or cheap ... and there is a reason that good dogs, with their papers for show or limited for pet status, are expensive. Their breeders care about the breed and about their puppies. Are you willing to follow each puppy you whelp for the next 10-15 years? Willing to take them back if they are cast aside by the family that swore to love them and cherish them and give them a forever home ... until they had to move, or had another child, or the kids are suddenly allergic, or they don't have time for the dog, or it potties in the house for the hundredth time because the Humans did not come home on time.

    Breeding responsibly is NOT for the faint of heart, it is not a casual hobby. Two of my four Doxies have their papers somewhere, as does my Paint gelding ... not a one of them has a testicle or a uterus. None of my animals ever will. There are too many critters out there looking for a home that would be thrilled to have a home with me.
    Anne

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    I agree so much with the previous post, Smu's papers are also kicking around here somewhere, her papers came with her but we could care less about them she is our furbabie, she came from a bad situation and was lucky to be rescued where so many are not... please spay or neuter your furbabie and put an end to the awful ciricle of unwanted dogs...
    Spud likes this.
    Lee & Judy parents of Smu

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    lbgrrl's Avatar
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    I have one of those "hobby breeder" pugs. I know because she is too tall, doesn't have the black nails, and is a little thinner than most pugs. She was certainly not bred by anyone who cared about the breed. And where did she end up? With people who cared nothing for her. She was with a family who gave her up (have no idea why) to a coworker, who then dumped her on his in-laws. The in-laws didn't care anything for her, they wanted her gone. They fed her, but that was all. She was dirty, had skin problems and their other dog bit her. As far as breed perfection, I could care less, she is a wonderful pet. But someone bred her somewhere to make a few bucks, and look at the crappy homes she had until she got here. While I do not support breeding in any form as long as there is one dog, cat or rabbit on death row, at least a responsible breeder will take back their dog. Try and get the hobby breeder to do that. Craigslist was full of $200/$300 pug puppies when I was looking for Beatrice (I was specifically looking for an adult who needed rehoming). "Hobby breeding" is awful--these are the pets who most often end up in shelters. Why? Because people who spend $1000 on a puppy will at least consider their investment carefully. But if the puppy was cheap, not such a loss when it begins to annoy the family with its chewing and pooping. Animals are not a "hobby". They are a life-long commitment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbgrrl View Post
    I have one of those "hobby breeder" pugs. I know because she is too tall, doesn't have the black nails, and is a little thinner than most pugs. She was certainly not bred by anyone who cared about the breed. And where did she end up? With people who cared nothing for her. She was with a family who gave her up (have no idea why) to a coworker, who then dumped her on his in-laws. The in-laws didn't care anything for her, they wanted her gone. They fed her, but that was all. She was dirty, had skin problems and their other dog bit her. As far as breed perfection, I could care less, she is a wonderful pet. But someone bred her somewhere to make a few bucks, and look at the crappy homes she had until she got here. While I do not support breeding in any form as long as there is one dog, cat or rabbit on death row, at least a responsible breeder will take back their dog. Try and get the hobby breeder to do that. Craigslist was full of $200/$300 pug puppies when I was looking for Beatrice (I was specifically looking for an adult who needed rehoming). "Hobby breeding" is awful--these are the pets who most often end up in shelters. Why? Because people who spend $1000 on a puppy will at least consider their investment carefully. But if the puppy was cheap, not such a loss when it begins to annoy the family with its chewing and pooping. Animals are not a "hobby". They are a life-long commitment.
    I could not have said it myself. I don't disagree with serious breeding however. If nobody did it, the integrity of the breed would soon disappear and we'd be left with only "companion quality" pugs. It would be terrible if the hard work of breeders over the last hundred years or so was gone to waste. But YES, puppies should be expensive. People should be forced to think long and hard before they get one. The money is the least sacrifice they'll have to make. I do not, nor will I ever, support back yard breeding. Only pugs that adher to the breed standard - both physically and mentally - and that have been put through all the necessary health tests, should ever be bred.
    Proud mama to puggies Winston and Ozzie, Slatan the Cat and Zino the horse.

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    mpersico is offline Village Puppy
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    I agree with the fact that puppies should be expensive to prevent poor decisions, and I also agree with having your dog go through all the necessary health tests to ensure there are no serious problems (or any problems really). But I disagree with breeding only dogs that adhere strictly to breed standards. A breed should be maintained, but there is no reason why there should be no cross-breeding or developing of other desirable traits. How else do we get more diverse breeds than by developing alternative traits and crossbreeding? There are 6 new breeds showing in the Westminster this year. Not a single person here would say that breeding irresponsibly is a good thing, but it is not fair to condemn people who do breed responsibly, who sell their puppies with a contract attached, and who carefully observe past and present generations for health problems, just because they aren't to the ideal breed standard or they aren't papered. There are a lot of bad breeders out there, people who are ignorant and cruel, but there are undeniably good breeders out there too. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of stereotyping going on, which is not a good thing in any circumstance, as history repeatedly shows.

    And as a sidenote, I personally want to move into showing and breeding dogs, but absolutely not until I am in a position in life where I can THOROUGHLY afford it in BOTH time and money, which is something I feel all breeders should adhere to as well.

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    **How else do we get more diverse breeds than by developing alternative traits and crossbreeding? **

    So Teacup Poodles and Teacup Aussies and Labradoodles and Bugs and Puggles and all the other designer breeds ... they are a good idea?? Have you met them? The teacups are a genetic mess with brittle bones and bug eyes and shortened life spans. Cross anything with a poodle and you have the latest hypoallergenic dog or designer breed to fleece people for. Bugs and Puggles are the worst of all three breeds. No diversity there, just manic behavior. The six new breeds at Westminster??? ... not so new. Just newly recognized by the highly political and cautious AKC.

    No Stereotyping here ... just a repetition of the lessons learned from a history of debate and observation and working in rescue. Perhaps a tenth pf a percent of people that begin with the best of intentions in breeding actually succeed in their endeavor. The other 99 9/10th% ... they produce puppies who suffer and pay the price.

    Move into showing first ... do an apprenticeship with a recognized breeder/kennel. Pay the dues, then think about breeding your bitch.
    Wally 'n' Leto likes this.
    Anne

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2050/2197629331_a45c4c5a9f_t.jpg ... & Mandy - The alleged Vicious Beast)

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    If all non commercial and whoops breeders were legally prohibited from selling puppies, but had to give them away, then the profit motive would shut them down in a heartbeat. As it is, on any given day, whoops breeders sell puppies to ensure good homes for anywhere from twenty to one hundred dollars. There is a lovely little bitch thirty miles from here, she is carrying puppies and listed for a hundred and fifty dollars. Do the math, skipping vet car and whelping in a box in the garage---six puppies might survive and be sold for a hundred dollars a piece. Tidy profit. While I would like to see a little more muzzle on a pug, the way to get there is not by cross breeding to a chihuahua. The were-collie, here, has enough chrome to qualify as a double dilute merle which sell for serious money on streetcorners, but are quietly culled by serious breeders as the double dilute carry bad vision, deafness, and bizarre personality. As it is, there is a local breeding pugs--I know there is because on three seperate occasions I have rescued or transported five pugs with distinctive bench legs in the front end. I wish she would put a cork in it.
    Last edited by tall grass pugs; 04-23-2012 at 09:20 PM.

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    mpersico is offline Village Puppy
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    Mandybait - 1st generation anything is never going to be perfect in the least, especially when they are breed en masse. New breeds take a long, long time, no denying that, but they are developed intentionally, it does take time, and you do have multitudes of problems to work your way through. Take the Doberman Pinscher for instance. A true-blue mutt, bred from at least four different dogs, and it took decades of experimentation and trial and error to develop. Now, it is a beautiful, registered, totally acceptable breed. The man who developed them was a tax collector.

    The lack of common sense here is disturbing to say the least. You all love your dogs, and are wonderful pet owners, but you are some of the most judgemental, predjudiced people I have ever come into contact with (I say this to the commentors I have seen, I'm sorry if anyone else takes offense). You all condemn everyone for the acts of a few. I have repeatedly stated that irresponsible breeding is a bad thing, and needs to stop. I also have repeatedly said that responsible breeding is a good thing, irregardless of how much you sell the puppy for, or if it is a perfect puppy or not. Yet all I hear about is how awful all breeders are. You all should be ashamed, when I was growing up my parents taught me not to stereotype people.

    And, furthermore, when I am in a situation where I can breed, I am going to. I not only have done, but constantly continue to educate myself about the topic, because you can never learn enough, there is always more. I have birthed and raised dozens of different animals, from fish to horses. Do not presume to lecture me about "paying my dues". I spent two years volunteering with a veterinarian so I could experience this kind of thing right up close, and you know what, for every dog that was neglected or abused that we saw, there were a dozen healthy, happy, loved dogs, and out of that dozen, maybe 7 were papered. So yes, when I feel ready to, I most definitely will, and until that time, I will constantly strive to learn more and educate myself with both experience and academics.
    frankoliverlucy likes this.

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    You all?? I think you mean me.
    The Doberman ... a 'few' decades??? The origin of the breed is 1890. The original stocky working dog bears little resemblance to the slim athlete or today - but their jobs are different ... and Man simply cannot resist tinkering with success. And still today there are issues with temperament, heart, and cervical problems ... not to mention the moral issues of ear cropping and tail docking. Look at the GSD and the horrific rear end so in fashion today. Not many of those dogs could work a herd all day.
    My Doxies actually go back to Egypt and the pharaohs. No less than three groups (hound, terrier, and spaniel) and who knows how many breeds.
    I have also been involved with Borzoi, Australian Cattle Dogs (Queensland Heelers), Thoroughbreds, and Appaloosas ... so I am a little more than the pedestrian pet owner you paint me as ... Stereotype much? I have the background and the experience to offer the **opinion** that you asked for. If you don't like my answers ... don't resort to name calling.
    As to my common sense ... I rescue, I don't breed, and never will again. Not horses, not dogs. First Generation??? To get to Tea Cup, there are multitudes of generations. Have to be to get the size. The designer dog craze I mentioned cannot get beyond the first generation, because the profitable traits the seize upon are lost in the second.
    Vets are not the ones that see the majority of the abused and neglected. That delight is reserved for the shelter, Animal Control, and rescue. you were hardly on the front line. Papers, schmapers ... give me Word and a scanner, I can create papers for any critter I own. They just don't matter. Why focus on them so hard?
    I believe the focus of my comments were BYB, or hobby breeders ... I support breeders of legitimate representatives of the breed. My Papa and his partner (A PhD in genetics ... enough education??) have been breeding Toy Poodles and Bichons for decades. Oh ... and they have been to Westminster ... in the last few years. They know where all their puppies are, and have taken many back when illness or deaths have required a safe haven for the dogs. I hardly condemn ALL breeders ... just the ones that look at their dogs and decide they are good enough to add to the population because they are healthy and their owner wants to add to the population willy-nilly. Not every uterus deserves to produce ... 99% shouldn't. Again ... just a repetition of the lessons learned from a history of debate and observation and working in rescue.
    Miss Pugg, tall grass pugs and jag like this.
    Anne

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2050/2197629331_a45c4c5a9f_t.jpg ... & Mandy - The alleged Vicious Beast)

    Dynamic Adventures of the DappleDuo

    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea.
    -Robert A. Heinlein

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