Need advice...senior pug with CT and needing dental work
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Thread: Need advice...senior pug with CT and needing dental work

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    lisiepug is offline New to the Village
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    Default Need advice...senior pug with CT and needing dental work

    I have a 12 year old female pug with pretty serious collapsed trachea issues. I know she needs dental work done, she has terrible breath, but I'm concerned about her being under anesthesia but also having a tube down her throat and what that will do to her afterward. I've expressed my concerns with the vet and she recommended I go see a doggie dental expert but I just found out the one dental vet moved out of our area so I no longer have that option. With my vet recommending this I am now worried my vet isn't experienced enough to know if it's safe enough for a senior pug with CT issues to have dental work. I feel like no matter the choice I make there's major risk either way, have her teeth cleaned and she could die on the table or make it and have damaging results to her trachea or don't have her teeth cleaned and her bad teeth will cause major health problems later. Any advice is appreciated! I'm a nervous wreck trying to make this decision!
    Last edited by lisiepug; 09-21-2017 at 06:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Wonka & Nilla's Avatar
    Wonka & Nilla is offline Village Dancing Jitterpug
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    I can certainly understand your concerns! I hate having to put my pugs under anesthesia for anything and then you have the worries about CT on top of everything else.
    I wonder if you have a vet school hospital within driving distance? They might have specialists who could advise you.
    Do you brush your pug's teeth? (I know that is nearly impossible with some pugs. But some people manage to get it done!) There are water additives you could try if you want to see if that helps before opting for a full dental.
    I wish I had more advice to offer. Sending along some best wishes for you to get the answers you need to make the best decision.
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    lisiepug is offline New to the Village
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    Wonka & Nilla, thank you for your reply, I'm not sure if there is a vet school in my area but I'll definitely look into it. And brushing... well my Abby is a super big baby 😄 She completely freaks out and I have to be so careful with her cause getting her all worked up gets her coughing and then it takes a week for that to calm down. I've never tried a water additive so I'll look into that as well. I appreciate your advice! Thank you!

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    shaynapug's Avatar
    shaynapug is offline True Village Royalty
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    There is a new medicine out that helps CT!!!!

    This is from OUR GURU...LISA
    Lisa Smith Weber Before surgery please try stanozolol. It has worked miracles for my two, but it is little known and because it is an anabolic steroid that body builders abuse, it is a controlled substance and your vet would need to prescribe it through one of the few veterinary compounding pharmacies that carries it, Diamondback Drugs in Arizona does. It is pretty cheap, easy to give (one pill twice a day for two months, then taper off for two weeks), it is considered curative, not just a management drug. Super easy on them with minimal to no side effects (mine had no side effects....other than being able to breathe again!). Very good safety profile and a very old drug. Long ago, before body builders discovered it, it was used to stimulate appetite in dogs. It fell out of favor once more effective appetite stimulants came out and it became a controlled substance. It was (and is) sold under the brand name Winstrol. There was a small Greek study, made more as an animal test to see if the drug had possibilities of helping humans with our version of collapsing trachea. Luckily the study was submitted to the Veterinary Journal, but because it was foreign, small, and no one else did further testing, it has been largely ignored and unnoticed. The results are dramatic and virtually all the animals were either cured or greatly improved. I have attached the Greek study, which includes dosage information and duration of treatment so your friend can take it to her vet.....and hopefully, he will be open-minded enough to do a trial of it before embarking on dangerous surgery to the trachea. http://journals.sagepub.com/.../10.1...63201102400113
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    Ashley Fischer This is very interesting. Is it only used for collapsing trachea or also for other symptoms of Brachycephallic Airway Syndrome?
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    Lisa Smith Weber I don't believe it has been tested for other airway conditions. It works by strengthening the weak, collapsing cartilage in the trachea, causing it to go back to it's normal position. With that information you could figure it *may* have some small value for laryngeal paralysis, but likely would not help everted saccules, elongated soft palate or stenotic nares. I would definitely do a course of it before other surgery personally, because when brachys are intubated (and especially during airway surgery) the trachea, if weak can collapse from the inflammation and edema that the intubation often causes following surgery. It is respiratory failure that kills most pugs AFTER surgery in the hours and days following surgery, so if you can strengthen the cartilage in the airway before surgery, it might help prevent deadly collapse after surgery. Also, even if a dog has the full spectrum of brachycephalic syndrome, improving the tracheal condition certainly would help a bit, even if there are other problems as well. Most older pugs have several airway disorders as co-morbiditys.
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    Sorry to hear about the CT and dental problems. Lisa is right about the Stanozolol -- another friend has had "miraculous" results as well. It's not easy to find, but if you want to start it, print out the study at the link above and give it to your vet. I'll check with Lisa on the pharmacy that fills it; I believe it's in Arizona.

    Under no circumstances put a 12-year-old dog with CT under anesthesia. If she's not slim and trim already, get her as thin as you can as fast as is safe, get through the few months of Stanozolol treatment, and if she gets considerable improvement in the CT and has no other systemic problems (do a full senior blood panel before, of course), then maybe consider it after consulting with a pug specialist, preferably at a teaching hospital (not a dentist, who might have no clue about brachycephalic dogs).

    I would definitely find a vet who's experienced with pugs going forward anyway, if you aren't confident your vet has much (and it sounds like she doesn't); if you don't know of any, contact your closest pug rescue and ask for their recommendation. Not sure where you are in Oregon, but the So. Oregon Veterinary Specialty Center is very well respected; you could call them and ask for a brachycephalic specialist consult. http://www.sovsc.com Good luck, and keep us posted.
    Last edited by Loconn55; 09-22-2017 at 07:07 PM.
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    lisiepug is offline New to the Village
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    Thank you for all of your suggestions! I appreciate it so much! I had read about stanzolol here on the forums and immediately asked my vet about trying it and she told me no way and listed off a million reasons why it was a bad idea. It sounds like I need to find a new vet, she has always been helpful so I didn't have any reason to not trust her opinion but this sounds like something my pug needs to try. Loconn55, the Southern Oregon Vet Specialty Center is where my vet recommended I go for the dental specialist but I called and found out that vet recently relocated to Vancouver! All the good ones leave our area! I'm in southern Oregon in the Medford area and am not sure of any vets that are familiar with pugs but I am in contact with the Pacific Pug Rescue and will definitely contact them to see if they know of any pug friendly vets or I just might try the SOVSC. I feel relief hearing I should not put my Abby under anesthesia because my gut tells me it's too risky but I've seen two vets who act like it's no big deal and I'm worrying too much. I appreciate everyone's suggestions, thank you all so much!
    Last edited by lisiepug; 09-22-2017 at 04:04 PM.
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    I second what Laurie has said. It just would not happen here. I'd work hard to clear up her mouth and breath with a holistic approach but I'd not put her under at all.
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    lisiepug is offline New to the Village
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    Update on Abby... I sent multiple links on everything I could on the stanzolol study and sent it to my vet. After she read it she still felt there were some red flags. First off, she said in the dogs in the study were scoped and had any dental care dealt with before even starting in the study. She felt it was very possible a lot of the dogs problems could have been solved with just dental work. When the study ended they did not rescope the dogs to really see what improvement had been made. She feels that with Abbyís current dental issues it would be a risk to her heart and overall health to just give it a try. Iím disappointed but I donít want to cause new problems for Abby. Also, I contacted the closest pug rescue to ask about any vets with experience in pugs and they did not know of any in my area. So right now Abby is taking an antibiotic to clear up any infection in her mouth and my vet wants to see if that also helps with her cough but so far it doesnít seem to be helping. I just feel so helpless on what to do with her! Her teeth are causing a lot of issues but if you do the dental work you risk a worsening trachea so basically she canít win either way :(

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    Rugbysmom is offline Village Royalty
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    OSU has a veterinary college located in Corvallis, OR, but I don't know how long of a drive that would be for you......we took our previous Pug, Rugby, to our veterinary college in Pullman, WA (WSU) a few years ago because she was having a lot of trouble with coughing, etc. Every imaginable test was done, including some very invasive & scary ones, & all the results still came back "inconclusive," while being quite costly. I don't know that I'd go that route again, especially with an aging dog. I like the replies above about maybe trying a water additive--I think there is one called Plaque Off or something like that. Maybe give her things she can chew on for a little while, supervised, of course. A lot of people seem to like bully sticks for their dogs--I've never used those, but we had a Pug who used to love those chew hooves....If she will allow you to brush her teeth, give that a try--our previous Pug, Rugby, didn't go for that at all, though--I had some of those little finger brushes the vet gave me, but Rugby tried to get it off my finger so she could swallow it! A toothbrush for dogs might work better, if you can get her to let you try it......if you do, make sure to use only the toothpaste made especially for dogs.
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    Rugbysmom

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